Think your teammates bring you down? It's not them, it's YOU

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Re: Think your teammates bring you down? It's not them, it's

Postby Doomstrike on Wed May 16, 2018 9:32 am

Except that anything hit past mid field counts as a shot on net even if it isn't actually ever going to go in. I agree with NoOne, your noob detector would be shot to goal ratio. I play with guys that have 10 shots a game with no goals because they all get crappy wheel hits or poor easy shots to save. I don't want a system that rewards them when I end up taking 2 shots all game and they end up being goals.

I agree somewhat that diamond rank could be split up a bit more as low diamond and diamond 2 is night and day difference from Diamond 3 and champ 1.

I completely disagree with you on the 2 shots is a warning sign because I've played plenty of games where you are lucky to have 4 shots on net total and the game ends a 1-0 or 2-1 in overtime. Those aren't noob warrning they are smart players because only noobs take shot after shot on net instead of making a passing play. If you want to move out of diamond easly the key is back board passes. Don't take the shot just smash the ball against the wall beside the goal post for easy rebound hits. You bait the goalie and if they don't out right miss they end up out of possition and you can maintain pressure. Team play wins games not solo plays (most of the time)
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Re: Think your teammates bring you down? It's not them, it's

Postby NoOne-NBA on Wed May 16, 2018 9:36 am

ChristianoRivaldo wrote:But when we want to detect a noob, looking at shots per game from a large number of games is a good indicator

Noobs can score easy goals, they can assist by accident, they sure as hell can save a million times by staying back like a scared noob, but they have trouble making alot of actual shots on goal. Because it takes some skill to do that.

I don't see shots as the unilateral "good indicator" you think they are.

All shots tell you, by themselves, is which players concentrate on slamming the ball toward the goal.
Without context, they don't give you any kind of indication as to whether those shots were good plays, or bad.
Your suggestion assumes anything that goes toward the goal is a good play, and that's absolutely not the case.

Just like the "scared noob" will rack up saves, the "stupid noob" will rack up shots, without actually contributing anything.
They'll have the same trouble making saves the "scared noob" has with making shots because they won't be in the proper position.
If all you do is fire everything you touch straight at the goalie, you'll get a lot of shots, but be an even bigger liability to the team than the perma-goalie.

I'll take the guy racking up zero points at midfield all day long, over some guy sending the ball straight to the opposing team every time he touches it.
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Re: Think your teammates bring you down? It's not them, it's

Postby littlebigleg on Wed May 16, 2018 9:55 am

One mans shot is another mans miss.Too many shots from one player all the time could indicate a ball chaser,Shot stealer,Over committer,Bad rotating or just being scared to defend now and again
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Re: Think your teammates bring you down? It's not them, it's

Postby Hydroxyde on Sat May 26, 2018 10:00 pm

OsoMako wrote:
Hydroxyde wrote:Osomako!

I just wanted to thank you for this post.

...

After reading your guide I calmed down, started playing every game to the best of my ability, even if I got yelled for being way too tryhard. Most games were forfeited ones, and as my confidence grew I was able to think on my passes the same way as I do with my shots and stopped going for clears that raffle the ball or ones that force 50/50s. The improvement was automatic, playing a more mental game, trusting my teammate even if we got scored and not blaming him for the mistakes. By doing this I started reviewing the plays that ended up as goals towards our team and realized a couple of things. Most goals came after trying to resolve other mistakes, like dominoes stacked until we had no more boost to defend or being too anxious and double commiting.

I can't deny this is now my best weapon. Being able to remain cold-headed after a goal and playing my strenghts and weaknesses to their full extent. Got placed at DII div II won every one of my games.

Thank you very much for making me realize this man

That's great to hear man! There will always be good streaks and bad streaks though, but keep your head in the game and you'll be better off for it. I expect you'll reach champ this season if you keep practicing hard. :)


Champ II :D Ty for the tips - Quite the journey
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Re: Think your teammates bring you down? It's not them, it's

Postby OsoMako on Sun May 27, 2018 10:10 pm

Hydroxyde wrote:
OsoMako wrote:That's great to hear man! There will always be good streaks and bad streaks though, but keep your head in the game and you'll be better off for it. I expect you'll reach champ this season if you keep practicing hard. :)


Champ II :D Ty for the tips - Quite the journey

That's awesome! Gj man.
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Re: Think your teammates bring you down? It's not them, it's

Postby BenzRevolution on Wed May 30, 2018 6:32 am

*After reading some of the recent comments and looking at the post, i know this is mainly for you to focus on yourself more than others, but....*

I may have to disagree with the "Its always your own fault" mentality. You made some good points, but that does not refrain the fault being upon your team members. I can give out several examples of it being another team members fault other than my own, heres a couple:

1. I pass the ball mid in front of opposing team's goal. Teammate (position #2) is the reciever, but teammate (position #3) goes for it as well resulting in a double commit, both whiff and opposing team manages a touch slamming the ball to our net for a goal. After my initial touch im already beginning my rotation while this is all happening at once, but its my fault our goal was left open because #3 decided to overtake #2 as a reciever and cause a double commission with the rotation not being completed?

2. Both Teammates are ultra-aggressive so they will probably never rotate, so obviously ill stay passive and go for whatever is open when one of them comes back for boost. These two guys have like a combined 12 shots with 0 goals, 0 saves, with 1 having an assist on me while i have 3-4 saves, a goal with 2 shots, and 0 assists. We lose in OT due to both of them being up during a 1v3 situation. But its my fault we lost since i failed to win the 1v3? (Commence the spamming of "What a Save!")

Thats just a couple, but i can go on if you like? It is not always 1 single person's fault, but it is still a possibility of being said 1 person. Many things can go wrong during those 5 minutes in the match. You whiff some shots, miss some saves, soft touch tf outta the ball in wrong situations or just boomed it constantly. But even with your faults, there are almost just as many your teammates must own up to as well; some possibly being the deciding factor of how the match turned out as it did. One other example would be if one guy is constantly chasing, never passing, and literally trying to play every position at once; even though you recognize their sporadic "playstyle" and adapt to it your team still loses its your fault still? That literally doesn't make sense to me. I am more than willing to admit if a loss was definitely my fault, but "every loss is my fault" seems like a logical fallacy in itself.

Many of your tips are really good ones; even i tell some players to follow them. I can't remember if you stated this one, but looking at old replays helps you analyze what you need to work on as well; i usually watch losing matches to see what i did wrong and what i could've done while also looking at what others messed up on as well. I sometimes do this for friends and help them identify what they need to work on.

----------------------------------

P.S. to be fair, if you are on a 8+ game losing streak then there definitely something wrong with how you are going about it, even if you have played with the same team and teammates for that many matches. That has given you ample time to identify what the opposing team sucks at, including your own team and you play off those weaknesses. They suck at defending aerials, do more aerial plays; they dominate the air, but their ground game sucks, fake and dribble them out with ground plays. After i hit a losing streak of 3-4 i just get off and rethink tf i was doing wrong.

And to be honest, that conspiracy theory is farfetched af lol. Psyonix has nothing to gain from doing that lol.
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Re: Think your teammates bring you down? It's not them, it's

Postby zGreenMachine- on Thu May 31, 2018 1:01 am

BenzRevolution wrote:*After reading some of the recent comments and looking at the post, i know this is mainly for you to focus on yourself more than others, but....*

I may have to disagree with the "Its always your own fault" mentality.


I will quote myself here:
zGreenMachine- wrote:Once again, the point is NOT that your teammates don't ever make mistakes.

Literally no one here is arguing that "every loss is 100% entirely your own fault and no one elses"
Toxicity is self-defeating, so keep positive vibes. Don't take it out on your teammates.
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Re: Think your teammates bring you down? It's not them, it's

Postby Galactic Geek on Thu May 31, 2018 10:55 pm

Just played an evening of SS, where I won 4, then lost 3... I could swear that the matchmaking, rather than pair me up with better opponents, decided to instead pair me up with worse teammates! Great rotation and passing in winning matches, and none of it in the losing matches... Heck, my 2 teammates own-goaled FIVE times in the last match!

*SMH* :?
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Re: Think your teammates bring you down? It's not them, it's

Postby OsoMako on Thu May 31, 2018 11:24 pm

Galactic Geek wrote:Just played an evening of SS, where I won 4, then lost 3... I could swear that the matchmaking, rather than pair me up with better opponents, decided to instead pair me up with worse teammates! Great rotation and passing in winning matches, and none of it in the losing matches... Heck, my 2 teammates own-goaled FIVE times in the last match!

*SMH* :?

If you consider own-goaling beneath you, then statistically speaking you always have better odds of the own goaler being on the other team. So you ought to be winning more games than you're losing because of own-goalers on the other team than because of own-goalers on your own team. Do you see where this is going? It comes down to you.

This same concept applies to every argument that pins the blame on your own teammates.
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Re: Think your teammates bring you down? It's not them, it's

Postby Galactic Geek on Fri Jun 01, 2018 12:47 am

OsoMako wrote:
Galactic Geek wrote:Just played an evening of SS, where I won 4, then lost 3... I could swear that the matchmaking, rather than pair me up with better opponents, decided to instead pair me up with worse teammates! Great rotation and passing in winning matches, and none of it in the losing matches... Heck, my 2 teammates own-goaled FIVE times in the last match!

*SMH* :?

If you consider own-goaling beneath you, then statistically speaking you always have better odds of the own goaler being on the other team. So you ought to be winning more games than you're losing because of own-goalers on the other team than because of own-goalers on your own team. Do you see where this is going? It comes down to you.

This same concept applies to every argument that pins the blame on your own teammates.


I don't consider it beneath me (since everybody does it at some point or another), but it's not hard to understand that if the ball is going in the wrong direction (towards your own goal), that you probably shouldn't hit it unless it's to pass it to your teammate who is prepared and waiting for it, or unless you can get in front of it 1st so that you can slow it down, stop it, or turn it around - this is exactly what I mention to my teammates when they hit the ball the wrong way/own-goal. It's common sense! Players get so drawn into ball-chasing that they lose focus and aren't paying attention, and it's especially evident at the lower ranks with whom I'm being matched with after consecutive wins! Covering the goal defensively in an attempt to make up for their bad play will only get me so far too - With their consistent misses, failure to jump, crashes into each other (and myself) due to their ball-chasing, the opposing team has all of the room they need to easily maneuver around or past me, especially if my teammates are too busy to notice that I'm already there and end up crashing into me in the process....

I think what it boils down to is that there simply isn't enough players in SS, so the matchmaking uses whoever is available.

Also, saying "this same concept applies to every argument that pins the blame on your own teammates" is just another way of saying "get good" which isn't an actual solution. That's like saying, "if you want to become an Olympian, you have to do better" - while it may be true, it doesn't do anything to actually get me there, so it's not an effective solution. It's also a passive-aggressive put-down, because you're essentially calling me a bad player. The irony is that it doesn't matter if I'm a good player or not - only that my teammates are worse than me in this case. The difference between them and myself is that I recognize and own up to my mistakes and know how to fix them, because knowing is half the battle, and I put in the practice and research. Them, though? They just quit...

I stand by what I said earlier - the matchmaking needs to pair me up with better opponents, not worse teammates.
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Re: Think your teammates bring you down? It's not them, it's

Postby NoOne-NBA on Fri Jun 01, 2018 6:51 am

Galactic Geek wrote:I stand by what I said earlier - the matchmaking needs to pair me up with better opponents, not worse teammates.

It shouldn't do either of those things artificially.
If the game only puts you into matches with, and against, people of your own current rank, you should win up out of that, without any artificial "help", if you deserve to.

And, just to point out AGAIN, you're complaining about the one portion of the game over which you have complete control.
YOU can control who you are teamed up with, which completely eliminates the effects of the RNG on your team, if you pick your teammates well.
If you want to face "better opponents", without being held back by "worse teammates", be proactive about it, and get a better team.
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Re: Think your teammates bring you down? It's not them, it's

Postby Galactic Geek on Fri Jun 01, 2018 9:22 am

NoOne-NBA wrote:YOU can control who you are teamed up with

Um, not in SS you can't, which is what I'm referring to. Even if I wasn't, it's still hard to find time to play with friends who are not a) offline, b) already playing with others, c) a world away, d) unskilled, or e) any combination of the above.
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Re: Think your teammates bring you down? It's not them, it's

Postby NoOne-NBA on Fri Jun 01, 2018 12:04 pm

Galactic Geek wrote:Um, not in SS you can't, which is what I'm referring to. Even if I wasn't, it's still hard to find time to play with friends who are not a) offline, b) already playing with others, c) a world away, d) unskilled, or e) any combination of the above.

You CHOOSE to play Solo Standard though.
By making that choice, you are also choosing to accept whatever randoms the game decides to put on your team, so you HAVE chosen your team.

What this comes back to is the 3v2 rule.
If you are good enough to advance from your current rank, you have a 3:2 chance of drawing a better team than the opposing team, from the remainder of the player pool, because one slot on your team is always guaranteed to be filled with a good player...YOU.
For Doubles, that jumps to 2:1 because you only have one chance to draw a bad player, vs. the other team's two chances.

Where this gets screwed up is when the game decides you are better than you are, and places you into a match where you're NOT a "good" player.
That's why I keep suggesting they eliminate all the "placement factors" and "winning streak" stuff.
If they let you play exclusively against people at your current level, it makes it much easier to determine who should go up, and who should go down.
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Re: Think your teammates bring you down? It's not them, it's

Postby Galactic Geek on Fri Jun 01, 2018 1:10 pm

NoOne-NBA wrote:
Galactic Geek wrote:Um, not in SS you can't, which is what I'm referring to. Even if I wasn't, it's still hard to find time to play with friends who are not a) offline, b) already playing with others, c) a world away, d) unskilled, or e) any combination of the above.

You CHOOSE to play Solo Standard though.
By making that choice, you are also choosing to accept whatever randoms the game decides to put on your team, so you HAVE chosen your team.


You think it's a choice!? Bwahahahaha!!!

No, it isn't... I play it because many of my friends are not as skilled as me, don't want to risk their own rank if they are better than me, are often busy or otherwise unavailable, etc. I could play casual, but then I have to deal with constant rage-quitters, unskilled players, players that don't take the game seriously ('cause casual), terrible AI bots, matches already in progress and losing, etc. I could go on! ...and on top of that, there are no seasonal rewards there that give me incentive to play it.

Choice? No... *SMH*
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Re: Think your teammates bring you down? It's not them, it's

Postby NoOne-NBA on Fri Jun 01, 2018 1:43 pm

Bad choices are still choices.

Your other option is to go play 1s.
You won't face any pre-made teams there, AND you won't get dragged down by less than adequate teammates.
That will eliminate two of your biggest complaints.

At some point it comes down to accepting that you belong where you are, working like hell to get better, or just giving up.
I've chosen to do the first one, and am considerably happier, for having done so.
That's not to say I'm not doing ANYTHING to get better, but I'm definitely not obsessing about it, and working myself to death chasing it.
I'm moving up slowly, as I improve my game play, without having all the pressure and frustration associated with trying to move up.

If I get crappy teammates, I do the best I can with them, then move on.
That's just a much better approach to the game, from a mental health standpoint, than focusing all your attention on the discrepancies between your current rank and your perceived rank.
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Re: Think your teammates bring you down? It's not them, it's

Postby Midremit on Fri Jun 01, 2018 2:40 pm

What a wonderful thread. Never seen so much nonsense spouted tbh.

Number of shots as a good measurement for detecting noobs? Okay.
Try looking at shot power/placement instead. Or rather, you know, the actual gameplay - everyone knows the scoring system is flawed

Trying to carry? Never a good idea, it just happens.
Playing with a ball chaser? Use it to your advantage. I know it's boring and frustrating to play with them, but they're great for pinching and conserving your own boost.

Also, why the hate on the matchmaking system? As if everyone has the same skill set and plays the same way.

When you're complaining about all those things you just don't get the purpose of this thread, which is hilarious.

Bitch mode over.

Sorry thought to let off some toxic thoughts, breakups can do that to people :(
Not saying gg after a game?
Despicable.

#BringBackSARPBCItsGoodSpirit
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Re: Think your teammates bring you down? It's not them, it's

Postby Galactic Geek on Mon Jun 04, 2018 8:22 am

I don't know how I missed it before, but I just read BenzRevolution's post above, and that is generally my line of thinking as well - great post!

That said, I'm still struggling in Solo Standard. I started today at Gold 1 Div 4 and am now 1 match away from being demoted into Silver (I'm currently Gold 1 Div 1) after losing ~5 consecutive matches or so, give or take. For a historical reference point in terms of ranked skill, in 3v3 Standard, I've been a Plat 3 Div 1 at my highest rank (and I was usually the 1 doing the carrying, FYI) and am a Rocketeer.

The reason I bring this up is because I'm concerned about the idea that, no matter how good you are, if your teammates make enough mistakes, that it won't matter. This is further exaccerbated, in my opinion, by the very advice many of you give - and is illustrated beautifully by the aforementioned post by Benz above with a few scenarios. If I, for example, constantly coach my team to properly rotate ("A rotate back to defense; B get the ball; I'll defend until A gets here and push up to support you B"), but they still fail to do so, I'm left with covering the holes that they're making (e.g., defending). Sure I can sit there and defend all day, but with my team consistently making mistakes such as missing the ball and failing to rotate, or push the ball forward, and all-in-all generally being confused, the pressure mounts as the opposing team continues their aggressive push, and will eventually best even me. This has generally been my experience.

Even worse, it seems to me that the more I lose and the more I get demoted in rank, the more I'm paired with teammates who know even less, which in turn only serves to make things harder for me, and for winning, while the opposition seems to remain fairly level. Since this is SS we're talking about here, I can't choose my teammates, or stick with the good ones from match to match - in fact, often times, when I do have good teammates, they often end up on the opposing team the following match, due to lack of players online, timing, etc.

It is of my opinion, that the ranking system for this game is not as accurate as it should be - in an ideal world, I should be paired with players of similar skill level, and opponents who are marginally better. Instead, I seem to be getting paired with players of much lower level who barely know how to hit the ball, are afraid or ignorant of how to jump, often drive backwards, crash into one another, or own-goal, and are seemingly confused about what roatation even means. Meanwhile, the opposition remains consistently marginally better than me - or at least good enough with their own teamwork that they can outpace me and my oft-bumbling team.

For the record, I'm not perfect either, as I do make mistakes, but it's far less often then those of my teammates by far, and when I do make them, I don't deny it - I'm quick to admit fault with the quick-chat. However most of my mistakes rely, I think, on an over-reliance on believing that my teammates are more dependable than they really are. For example, not going for the ball because I believe my teammate will hit it, but then they don't. Sometimes, I'll push up too early too, believing that my teammate(s) will make a certain block or pass that doesn't happen, which then allows the opposing team to get the upper-hand. In these scenarios, though, it's not just my fault - like Benz said, it's OUR fault, as a team. And that is why I always support looking at the team dynamic as a whole, and not just me vs. my teammates. You guys seem to try to isolate things from what I gather, but in dding so, I think many of you also seem to lose context - and context means everything.

TLDR - No matter how good you are, if the rest of your team is bad enough, consistently enough, it will eventually bring you down too.
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Re: Think your teammates bring you down? It's not them, it's

Postby Doomstrike on Mon Jun 04, 2018 8:58 am

Galactic I would highly recomend you get alpha console if you are playing on PC. you will see everyones ranks live and just maybe that will change your mind on the better players against me. That being said as mentioned tons before in 3s if you are the highest mmr out of the 6 you will always get the worst mmr of the batch on your team to avg out the ranks. Alpha can and will show you that. Maybe that will help you with choices when you are the top player and when you aren't it might be an eye opener.

The 2 bits of advice I will give is this. If you are playing with ball chasers or people that hit the ball on the way back then the 3rd man must stay further back to avoid the inevitable centers that come from side hitting into the wall. Keep track of boost and make sure if you are the 3rd man up that you always have 100 boost in case of bad hit or u moved up to much.

When you get to higher levels then there are 2 types of people those that side hit and those that take the ball up your own back wall. If the 3rd man isn't charging or you are too far back always put the ball to the back wall never side hit but just the same never let an oppoenent dribble the ball the entire way as that is a for sure way of your goalie getting juked or flicked if no one forces the touch first. 3rd man should never charge in if no one is rotating back fast enought get the next hit if you forced a flick or challenge
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Re: Think your teammates bring you down? It's not them, it's

Postby NoOne-NBA on Mon Jun 04, 2018 9:09 am

Galactic Geek wrote:Since this is SS we're talking about here, I can't choose my teammates, or stick with the good ones from match to match - in fact, often times, when I do have good teammates, they often end up on the opposing team the following match, due to lack of players online, timing, etc.

And that's exactly how matchmaking is supposed to work.

The game teams you with random players, who are near your own rating, and places you against random players on the other team, in that same range.
At the conclusion of that match, the game shuffles everyone, and you often end up with your former teammates being on the other team.
If you're ranked properly, it's going to be a "win some/lose some" affair, and you'll stay where you are.
If you're better than the people you're being matched up with/against, you'll win more than you lose, and will move up accordingly.

If you have to have "good teammates" to win, and lose every time you get "bad teammates", you're properly ranked.
When you improve enough to win more of those "bad teammate" games, you'll move up.
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Re: Think your teammates bring you down? It's not them, it's

Postby Galactic Geek on Mon Jun 04, 2018 11:40 am

Doomstrike, do you see a SteamID in my profile box? So, no - Alpha Console isn't an option for me.

I just recently turned on crossplay to get more players into the matchmaking search, which should help a bit, but the numbers don't change under the playlist numbers and I find that odd (I think it should show what's relevant to the search parameters). Also, I hate that I can't report other platform players via XBL because they're not on it - its reporting functionality is so much better than RL's 'cause comments.


...and before I forget, thanks for the advice, Doomstrike.
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