Think your teammates bring you down? It's not them, it's YOU

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Re: Think your teammates bring you down? It's not them, it's

Postby OsoMako on Wed Dec 06, 2017 12:35 pm

Business have had nearly a decade to determine the advertising worth of e-sports, so if they're continuing to invest in new e-sports, that's gotta tell you something. I'm not really sure why we got on this conversation track though. :lol:
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Re: Think your teammates bring you down? It's not them, it's

Postby GeckoPlayzz on Sat Dec 30, 2017 2:14 am

This thread is high quality bait!

You just wanted attention you nostalgic knucklehead freakazoid!
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Re: Think your teammates bring you down? It's not them, it's

Postby N7Mith on Sat Dec 30, 2017 5:42 am

GeckoPlayzz wrote:This thread is high quality bait!

You just wanted attention you nostalgic knucklehead freakazoid!

Yes it is bait. No it wasn't for his attention needs. Read the first post again.
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Re: Think your teammates bring you down? It's not them, it's

Postby Doomstrike on Thu May 10, 2018 8:54 am

I feel this thread needs to make a come back since so many people are back on the its my teammates fault train so here's the OPs post to refresh this since most people will just skip to the last page

OsoMako wrote:If you think your teammates are bringing you down, I'm sorry. It's not them, it's you. You're the problem. Now, I'm not saying that your teammates don't make mistakes. Everyone makes mistakes, and plenty of them. But time after time I've found one thing to be true while playing this game. If you EVER get to the point wherein you're blaming your teammates game after game, the problem is with you. You can only fix what you do, not what your teammate does. How's that saying I just made up go? Oh yeah. Focus on your problems, and you'll grow better. Focus on other people's problems, and you'll grow bitter.

Here's what you're probably doing wrong.

None of that is all too constructive though, so here's a checklist of things to look for in yourself. I don't know what rank you're at, but they're things I end up doing that mess me up the most at champion level. If you don't think you do any of this, check a replay or two of your very next games and watch them not as yourself but as an outsider. Narrate it like you're watching the RLCS. In that mindset, let's give the things to watch for in "outsider" caster language.

  • "OsoMako takes over possession and starts going upfield. He hits it forward, opponent catches it, and begins their assault."
    This is a cardinal sin in champion+ level play, and one that EVERYONE breaks, but champions break it the least whereas everyone else breaks it all the time. Some call it "ping pong", but you really only have ONE excuse for forfeiting possession by hitting the ball forward to the opponent: you were saving your team from an immediate shot on your net. Most players don't even really consider the idea of sustained possessions, but it's real and it's something you need to focus on now rather than later in order to get better.

    Every touch you make, particularly in competitive, needs to be focused. If that touch you're making doesn't keep giving you the best chance at either A) maintaining possession of the ball, B) passing to a teammate, or C) taking a shot on net, then it was a bad touch and anything that happens afterward is directly YOUR FAULT. I don't care if your teammate's controller explodes into flames and he just had an aneurysm over in net trying to defend the shot that came after; because you caused that aneurysm and the preceding flames by passing it directly to the opponent.

  • "OsoMako comes in like a meteor! Ooh and he completely misses [hits it sideways/backwards/who-knows-where]."
    If you ever miss the ball completely, you just cost the team a goal. Again, it doesn't matter if your teammate dies of heart failure and pukes all over his screen trying to defend the shot that comes after. It doesn't matter if the opponent suddenly became Markydooda and did something nasty to make you miss the ball. It doesn't matter that it was a hard bounce to read. What matters is that you didn't see the opponent about to do something nasty or read the ball properly, and you left your team in a bad position as a result. If you ever find yourself missing a shot, you need to practice that shot or not go for it. Many times the right play is to not engage in the play at all. Wait in an advantageous spot to see what happens, then clean up afterward.

    Missing a shot puts you out of the play completely for a long time, and is akin to giving the opponent a power play. If you can't make the shot most of the time, you don't go for it. That's how you keep from losing games. And again, when I say "make the shot", I mean following the criteria in the first example. If it isn't a pass, if it doesn't maintain possession, or if it isn't a shot, then it was a miss and you messed up.

  • "Opposing team almost had that! OsoMako takes over possession on defense on his side of the field, he hits it into the side wall, waiting for his teammates to hit it ... oh and they get scored on. Opposing team has won!"
    When you're on your own side of the field, smacking the ball directly into the side wall without immediately following up on the touch is the same as handing the opposing team a W. If your teammates respect rotations at all, they will not be directly behind you waiting to take over after your little side wall touch. That ball belongs to you when you do that. So what are they doing? They're sitting back waiting to get passed to, or rather, they're actually waiting to get scored on because you just hung them out to dry by hanging a nice dead curveball right over the center of your side of the field. May the Rocket League Gods have mercy on their soul as they try to salvage something good out of the plate of excrement you just handed them.

  • "OsoMako carries it into the opposing team's corner. He sees his teammate waiting in middle and passes -- oh but it's a weak touch! Opposing team slams it downfield past both OsoMako and his teammate. It's a 1v3 / open net!"
    If you're in the opposing team's corner and you pass over the middle, you better make sure that your pass is laser-focused on that teammate of yours. That doesn't mean hit a laser. Jesus Timmy what have I told you about hitting laser passes. Lasers only get pointed at your enemy, not your teammates. I mean laser-focused. They should lead the ball such that only your teammate can get to it first -- whether that's on the side of the field that you passed it from or the opposite. Again, trust your teammate to make the shot happen, but give him a chance. If you bait him into taking your pass, but make a poor pass, then you just hung your whole team out to dry once again.

  • "OsoMako dribbles it upfield, he sees his teammate across the field and passes. Oh but the enemy catches it first. / Oh but it's slightly behind them. / Oh but it's too fast. / Oh but his teammate wasn't expecting it."
    Nope. Sorry, every single one of those outcomes was your fault. Your passes are exactly like your shots and need to follow the same rules previously mentioned. Except you need to be even more precise with a pass than with a shot, and you need to be sure that your teammate is expecting the pass. Car language means everything here and is something you'll learn over time, but it means you need to be reading your teammate perfectly while at the same time passing the ball perfectly. And you can't avoid passing if you want to win. No really, I don't care if on your last three passes to him your teammate managed to aerial all the way to the top of old Neo Tokyo while you're playing on Utopia Coliseum, you still pass to him and trust in your teammates. Because anybody who's worth their salt on the other side of the field will at least know how to block what's coming in one direction. You beat people by hitting them from multiple angles at once, or, you know, by working with your team as a unit to win.

But seriously! My teammates are BAD!

First of all, that's wishful thinking. It's almost certainly you, yet you're conveniently forgetting your own mistakes while emphasizing theirs in your head (see: Confirmation Bias). But let's assume that your teammates are bad anyway. A bad teammate is always a liability, and may likely cost the game. This is a competitive game, and when one link in the chain is weak, that's probably where you'll break. There's a handful of things that you can do to alleviate the situation for both you and your teammate:

  1. Figure out what they're bad at.
    Look for where that chain will break. Do things to shore them up on those weaknesses. Do they suck at wall touches? Hedge your bets and stay a medium distance between being available for a pass and catching his flubbed wall hit. Can you not trust them in a corner to make a good clear? Hold your position in net for as long as humanly possible before pushing in to help clear it. Are they bad at shot accuracy? Try to be in position to hit their rebound or to do a redirect whenever they're about to shoot, or at least to keep it in the opponent's side and maintain possession. A bad shot on net is still pressure that builds up against the opponent, so it's not all bad.

    This is what you'd want to do with any teammate by the way, catch onto their weaknesses and help with them.

  2. Slow things down a bit.
    Sometimes your teammate isn't as bad as you think, but you've been going breakneck with the enemy, and your teammate hasn't had time to efficiently gather boost. If you don't have a good supply of boost, it's way harder to make proper challenges and be involved correctly in the play. So give him a bit more time to work with. This will also let you survey the field and avoid the issue of just slamming the ball upfield that I talked about. Also, the more often you break the pace of the game, the more often you'll score. Think about it this way. If your opponent has been used to going breakneck the whole game, and you suddenly slow it down right before you commit to that 50/50 he's barreling into, you just faked him out and he's out of the play. Then you can focus down on the remaining defenders and take them out too.

    Even if it's not a fake, suddenly slowing it down can mess up their rotations. Your teammates will naturally not want to "go offsides" for the most part (though in a 3v3, going offsides is a terrific way to catch the opponent off guard and get goals), so they'll wait and gather a bit of boost while you figure out what to do. But if you've been given the time to make a play, use it. Don't always succumb to the tempo of the game.

  3. Always respect your opponent and keep playing to your best ability.
    This sounds obvious, but when everybody on both sides of the pitch is playing like garbage, it's easy to start playing like garbage alongside them. Don't give in. You're all around the same rank, so it's very likely that some of you are just having a bad start. Given enough time, anyone and everyone in the game can make tremendous plays. So don't give in to thinking that you're better than everyone. Think to yourself, "what can/would I do that'd be the most devastating to the opposing team here/there?" and either prepare for it or do it. I can't count the number of times I've written someone off in a game, then gotten flicked over to put that game into overtime and lose. The same goes for your teammate -- he's your teammate because he's similar in rank to you, regardless of whether you think he should be, so don't write him off. Keep trusting him and keep making plays with him that you think he might be able to make with you.

  4. When you're the weak link, be the strongest weak link you can.
    Even if you know that your teammates are carrying the load, and you've got 60 points to their 6000 combined, just keep setting them up so they can do their thing and cover their back. A win's a win, so do whatever it takes to keep that going, even if you're the fall guy who backflips the second an open net shows for you. Whatever, just keep pushing and playing your best. (Playing your best != playing your fastest)

Keep thinking strategically about what you're doing and take all the time you're given to make things happen. That's all I've got for now. Best of luck improving. And remember, it's your fault! :mrgreen:
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Re: Think your teammates bring you down? It's not them, it's

Postby littlebigleg on Thu May 10, 2018 11:25 pm

good bump ! Everyone seems to be moaning at the moment .too many "glass is half empty " folk around this place these days
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Re: Think your teammates bring you down? It's not them, it's

Postby zGreenMachine- on Fri May 11, 2018 12:51 am

I was just thinking about this thread earlier, definitely a much needed bump :cheesygrin:
Toxicity is self-defeating, so keep positive vibes. Don't take it out on your teammates.
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Re: Think your teammates bring you down? It's not them, it's

Postby xkoeckiiej on Fri May 11, 2018 1:38 am

Should be stickied.
RIP RocketLeagueStats :(
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Re: Think your teammates bring you down? It's not them, it's

Postby dr_canna_bis on Fri May 11, 2018 5:59 am

Best of Luck to all.
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Re: Think your teammates bring you down? It's not them, it's

Postby Galactic Geek on Sun May 13, 2018 10:52 am

Nope, still sticking to my original guns on this one. While it's true much of it may be my own fault, I still prescribe to the idea that others ALSO still make mistakes, many of which are often worse than my own. It's a TEAM effort, not a solo effort, and no amount of how well I play will fix their own bad plays.
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Re: Think your teammates bring you down? It's not them, it's

Postby littlebigleg on Sun May 13, 2018 3:03 pm

dr_canna_bis wrote:Glad I took the time to read.
I've started watching my replays (especially when an opposing player scores many goals).
Why was he in position and why was I not?
How does he always have boost?
Why am I always 1/4 second late to the ball?

It's been some tough soul searching, but I have suddenly gotten better. And....... have discovered I tended to be a ball chaser and played too cautiously.
For me, attitude seems to be as important as mechanics.

Forget all the training packs.........watch your replays.


Try watching your replays from a birds eye perspective,As in from the ceiling of the arena,Great way too see exactly were you should and shouldn't be,And also pretty hilarious to see what a silly wee game were actually playing :o
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Re: Think your teammates bring you down? It's not them, it's

Postby littlebigleg on Sun May 13, 2018 3:25 pm

Galactic Geek wrote:Nope, still sticking to my original guns on this one. While it's true much of it may be my own fault, I still prescribe to the idea that others ALSO still make mistakes, many of which are often worse than my own. It's a TEAM effort, not a solo effort, and no amount of how well I play will fix their own bad plays.



you are totally wrong in your "and no amount of how well I play will fix their own bad plays" bit.. If you can only play with people that are better than you or on par with you ,you have already lost a third of all your matches. Learning to carry is a must in this game,And the same goes for playing smart when you are getting carried as well
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Re: Think your teammates bring you down? It's not them, it's

Postby zGreenMachine- on Mon May 14, 2018 3:59 am

Galactic Geek wrote:Nope, still sticking to my original guns on this one. While it's true much of it may be my own fault, I still prescribe to the idea that others ALSO still make mistakes, many of which are often worse than my own. It's a TEAM effort, not a solo effort, and no amount of how well I play will fix their own bad plays.

Once again, the point is NOT that your teammates don't ever make mistakes.
Toxicity is self-defeating, so keep positive vibes. Don't take it out on your teammates.
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Re: Think your teammates bring you down? It's not them, it's

Postby Doomstrike on Mon May 14, 2018 11:43 am

Its a mindset, as stated before. Its about changing your mind set and if you do that and everyone else on your team does that then...oh nvm just read the thread its repeated over and over
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Re: Think your teammates bring you down? It's not them, it's

Postby Galactic Geek on Mon May 14, 2018 2:31 pm

I try to carry (I shouldn't have to - in an ideal world, matchmaking would actually, you know, work) and help my team become better players by offering advice and encouragement by staying positive. However, this only goes so far, and only for those willing to listen (which, BTW, most don't - they often get defensive, shut me out, or simply give up, and/or quit).

It's incredibly difficult for anyone to play solo in a 1v5 match, with your 2 teammates constantly ball-chasing and knocking you out of the way and unwittingly helping the other team. If they quit, it's just as bad, because 3v1 (just you vs. th entire other team) means they can do setups that you can't or even actively have the freedom to seek you down specifically to demolish you over and over again.

At that point it's no longer a game; it's just not fun anymore...
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Re: Think your teammates bring you down? It's not them, it's

Postby Doomstrike on Mon May 14, 2018 3:38 pm

Or maybe you just reached your peak and aren't compatible with others. People didn't smurf there way to grand champ in solo 3s. Maybe its actually your way of playing that isn't compatible with the rest of your team and that's why you feel like they suck when if they were on the opposing team they might not have a problem.

Post something up on youtube and let others see just what really happened and what was the catalyst that led to that point.

Lots of people have said in the past my team mates suck and when they finally did post people broke it down and show/explained just how badly that person was actually playing and that was also why most his / her games went sideways. No one likes to admit they aren't good or great at something. It's the ones that are willing to take the time to learn and adapt that progress. and hey you get a free coaching session from a bunch of people and if you are right then psyonix has something they can view and check via logs.

Either way free help or proof for psyonix to review. This entire post is made to help and change people's mind set and to re-think how they play. In fact its pretty much been tailored for people who sound just like you
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Re: Think your teammates bring you down? It's not them, it's

Postby ChristianoRivaldo on Tue May 15, 2018 7:39 pm

I used to think like this when I was about 1000 hours in the game. I was like, yeah if someone complains all the time, it's probably them.

More than 1500 hours later I can assure you I WAS WRONG. I play doubles solo que and I can tell you this: The Diamond Rank is a place where you see players with HUGE differences in skill and in a situation like that, it's the bad players that determine the outcome of the match.

THE BAD PLAYERS DETERMINE THE OUTCOME OF THE MATCH


So there is a group of people stuck in Diamond trying to carry people that just can't be carried. You can carry a player that is not the best in the world, but you cannot carry someone who makes mistakes all the time. Mistakes are what determine the outcome of a match and you see far too many noob mistakes in Diamond. There are so many players that shouldn't be there, it's crazy. For things to become more fair, the skill gap between team mates needs to close.

THE SKILL GAP IS TOO BIG IN DIAMOND


The complaints you hear are not always by salty people There is a real problem in Diamond. I am telling you this after thousands of hours in the game. Trust me and the rest of the people who say this.

THERE IS A REAL PROBLEM


I know it's hard to tell the difference between someone who just complains because he doesn't want to admit that he isn't good and someone who actually has this problem, but trust me . I have put so many hours in RL I know what I'm talking about. And I also know that some people won't admit to this problem because they are the ones who get carried. And that makes it even harder to raise awareness for this problem.


WHAT I SUGGEST:


The one statistic in Rocket League that says a lot about a player's skill is the SHOTS he takes in a game.
Not the SAVES, because a goal camper makes easy saves.
Not ASSISTS, because both team mates take part in that.
GOALS maybe, but not necessarily.

SHOTS however say a lot about a player. In order to make a SHOT you need to be able to aim the ball towards the goal, which many people can't do, simple as it sounds. If a player has a lot of SHOTS, it means they don't camp back all of the time and expect a carry. It means they are capable of threatening the opponent's post. It means they have at least some skill. In my experience, I have seen that SHOTS very often reflect the skill of a player. Noob players almost always have very few shots in a game. BECAUSE THEY CAN'T HIT THE BALL THE WAY THEY WANT TO.

USE THAT STATISTIC PSYONIX


Use that stat for match making. Use it to determine mmr or whatever it is you use. It is the most accurate way to separate the noobs from people who can play. If you do that, I am sure the match making will be 1000 times better than it is now, which is a total mess.
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Re: Think your teammates bring you down? It's not them, it's

Postby OsoMako on Wed May 16, 2018 5:10 am

Christiano, hitting shots isn't that important of a statistic. You can easily hit 10 shots, but put them all in an easily clearable position for the opponent, baiting your teammates in for what would've been an easier pass than a shot, and losing the game for having taken shots instead of working as a team. In fact, that happens quite a lot.

Assists are a better indicator of usefulness to your team than shots to be honest. But no statistic is going to account for you passing to your opponent, whether it be via a shot or a poor clear. And no statistic will show you missing a pass or messing up your team by trying to carry by yourself.
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Re: Think your teammates bring you down? It's not them, it's

Postby ChristianoRivaldo on Wed May 16, 2018 6:46 am

OsoMako wrote:Christiano, hitting shots isn't that important of a statistic. You can easily hit 10 shots, but put them all in an easily clearable position for the opponent, baiting your teammates in for what would've been an easier pass than a shot, and losing the game for having taken shots instead of working as a team. In fact, that happens quite a lot.

Assists are a better indicator of usefulness to your team than shots to be honest. But no statistic is going to account for you passing to your opponent, whether it be via a shot or a poor clear. And no statistic will show you missing a pass or messing up your team by trying to carry by yourself.



I agree 100% with what you've said except for one thing. IT IS an important statistic when it comes to people with NO SKILL that DON'T BELONG in Diamond.

PEOPLE WHO CAN'T PLAY, CAN'T SHOOT

There is no other statistic that comes as close to being an accurate noob detector as this.

I get people that CANNOT shoot the ball all the time. In freaking Diamond. Using this stat to determine mmr, instead of just wins/losses would make mmr a lot more accurate.

I know a good pass takes more skill than a good shot, but we are talking basics here. We get people that CAN'T DO THE BASICS. Everyone gets chances to shoot the ball in every game. Having 0/1/2 shots in most games is a clear sign that there is something wrong with that player's skill.
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Re: Think your teammates bring you down? It's not them, it's

Postby NoOne-NBA on Wed May 16, 2018 7:12 am

ChristianoRivaldo wrote:I get people that CANNOT shoot the ball all the time. In freaking Diamond. Using this stat to determine mmr, instead of just wins/losses would make mmr a lot more accurate...

Having 0/1/2 shots in most games is a clear sign that there is something wrong with that player's skill.

I think your "solution" would intensify this problem, rather than fix it.

Under the current system, all players on a team are rewarded relatively equally for a victory, subject to any "adjustment factors" that are built in, to try to compensate for number of games played, and such.
That allows people who didn't contribute to the win to benefit from it, which gives them reassurance that what they are doing is "effective".

Under your proposed system, ball chasers would not only receive the MMR points for the win itself, but would be rewarded more than their defensive minded teammates.
Put that into play, and suddenly EVERYONE is going to be a ball chaser.
The net result of that is that the game will reward the people who get teamed up with someone who will cover their inadequacies, while penalizing those same people who are actually making the difference in the game.

I think "goals/shot ratio" would be a much better statistic to use.
I can put a lot of shots onto goal, in a single game.
How many of those actually go in gives a much clearer picture of what is actually happening in the match.
Couple that with a revamp of the save tracking system, so it only tracks saves that result in a subsequent clear, and suddenly Assists become a more relevant statistic as well.
Looking at all three of those statistics, in a single match, will give you a much better idea of how well rounded a given player is, and would coax the "one trick ponies" into expanding their game.
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Re: Think your teammates bring you down? It's not them, it's

Postby ChristianoRivaldo on Wed May 16, 2018 8:45 am

NoOne-NBA wrote:
ChristianoRivaldo wrote:Looking at all three of those statistics, in a single match, will give you a much better idea of how well rounded a given player is, and would coax the "one trick ponies" into expanding their game.


I know that. I am talking specificity about a noob detector here. And the most accurate stat for noob detecting is the SHOT.

If we are comparing skilled players, then yes, only looking at shots says nothing. But when we want to detect a noob, looking at shots per game from a large number of games is a good indicator

In some matches you are not given the opportunity to take many shots. But having an average of 2 shots per game is a red flag to say the least.
Noobs can't shoot the ball. They fail that stat all the time.

Noobs can score easy goals, they can assist by accident, they sure as hell can save a million times by staying back like a scared noob, but they have trouble making alot of actual shots on goal. Because it takes some skill to do that.

Diamond rank NEEDS a noob detector. Even if its not very accurate.

If we could track how many mistakes a player makes, then that would be by far the best stat to use. Absolutely. But a computer can't really do that . So we have to compromise with another stat. That is the SHOT in my opinion.
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