Another issue regarding MMR

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Another issue regarding MMR

Postby midnightgreen20 on Tue Aug 29, 2017 10:01 pm

This is part of a response I gave to someone on reddit, but I think it's worth posting here to add more to the discussion as to why the ranked mode doesn't work as well as it should

midnightgreen20 wrote:That being said, there is one glaring problem with how the system works currently. The game tries to match you up with people of equal skill to make games "even." In other words, the game is trying to keep you at winning 50% of matches as much as possible. This translates to you being stuck at a rank for an extended period of time.
The idea is that if you are just too good being at one rank, you climb up until you find yourself at the "appropriate" rank. However, with enough practice, people become gradually better over time even while being in that rank. But with a system that is constantly trying to get you into even matches, and a 50% win ratio, your skill gains won't translate into MMR. This also becomes even more problematic when the game uses someone with a higher MMR to average out the team and make the team "even" with the other.
Furthermore, there are lots of areas to be skilled at in this game. People can have the same MMR, but be proficient at completely different aspects. Depending on who you get, you could have a team that is wildly imbalanced in terms of who is good at what. This causes the system to be quite volatile to the point where rank swings are just part of the norm.
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Re: Another issue regarding MMR

Postby zGreenMachine- on Wed Aug 30, 2017 12:07 am

I can agree that players with the same MMR can be proficient at different skills. So because of that maybe MM can't make balanced games, is that the point you're trying to make? Or are you against MM trying to make balanced games at all?

Or are you simply suggesting that MM shouldn't try to use higher/lower ranked players to balance games?

Should the variables that make up a player's MMR be changed? Are you trying to point out there should be an alternative to MMR altogether?

I have a lot of questions as you can see :P
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Re: Another issue regarding MMR

Postby Tentacles on Wed Aug 30, 2017 1:39 am

MM should not try to balance the match with higher/lower ranked players., you either belong in that rank or you don't. Way too often am I finding someone who is not proficient in any skill close to the rank I'm in. Not even a bad game could be used as an excuse.
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Re: Another issue regarding MMR

Postby midnightgreen20 on Wed Aug 30, 2017 5:22 am

zGreenMachine- wrote:I can agree that players with the same MMR can be proficient at different skills. So because of that maybe MM can't make balanced games, is that the point you're trying to make? Or are you against MM trying to make balanced games at all?

Or are you simply suggesting that MM shouldn't try to use higher/lower ranked players to balance games?

Should the variables that make up a player's MMR be changed? Are you trying to point out there should be an alternative to MMR altogether?

I have a lot of questions as you can see :P


I'm saying that it can't ultimately make balanced games. This may not be much of an issue at the champion levels, but certainly below there is way too much fluctuation in skills and such that it will never be consistent enough to be passable in my eyes. It's more reason why there needs to be a better option outside of the casual playlists, like the player lobbies idea that I have. I'm open to other ideas if other ones are presented, but none have been so far.
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Re: Another issue regarding MMR

Postby NoOne-NBA on Wed Aug 30, 2017 8:08 am

This is why I've changed my mind since launch, and now support performance-based ranking, especially in Solo Standard.

Anything that can create a larger gap, between one tier and the next, should help the matchmaking overall, once it reaches full effect.
It doesn't have to be anything excessive, just an extra little bump up or down, depending on how you did in that particular game.
People who contribute a lot will drift upwards with a given tier, while others will drift downward.
Over time, those small bumps will push people farther apart, leaving the system with wider gaps between players, while it decides which players to match together.
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Re: Another issue regarding MMR

Postby DeviantFive0 on Wed Aug 30, 2017 8:40 am

NoOne-NBA wrote:This is why I've changed my mind since launch, and now support performance-based ranking, especially in Solo Standard.

Anything that can create a larger gap, between one tier and the next, should help the matchmaking overall, once it reaches full effect.
It doesn't have to be anything excessive, just an extra little bump up or down, depending on how you did in that particular game.
People who contribute a lot will drift upwards with a given tier, while others will drift downward.
Over time, those small bumps will push people farther apart, leaving the system with wider gaps between players, while it decides which players to match together.


This approach would work well. But id like to see it work both ways, play at your best and win = max win points, play at your best and lose = min lose points.

I dont mind losing if i genuinely played crap, but when im at my peak and carrying the team but we still lose, i hope to god that im not losing the same MMR as the rest of the team.
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Re: Another issue regarding MMR

Postby xkoeckiiej on Wed Aug 30, 2017 8:52 am

midnightgreen20 wrote:
zGreenMachine- wrote:I can agree that players with the same MMR can be proficient at different skills. So because of that maybe MM can't make balanced games, is that the point you're trying to make? Or are you against MM trying to make balanced games at all?

Or are you simply suggesting that MM shouldn't try to use higher/lower ranked players to balance games?

Should the variables that make up a player's MMR be changed? Are you trying to point out there should be an alternative to MMR altogether?

I have a lot of questions as you can see :P


I'm saying that it can't ultimately make balanced games. This may not be much of an issue at the champion levels, but certainly below there is way too much fluctuation in skills and such that it will never be consistent enough to be passable in my eyes. It's more reason why there needs to be a better option outside of the casual playlists, like the player lobbies idea that I have. I'm open to other ideas if other ones are presented, but none have been so far.


Heeyy someone i can agree with.
In champion and even grandchampion people still have the same problem like in the lower ranks.
Especially lower ranked games will never have a system which allows to always have close games.
People are too shit (no offense) in most aspects making it impossible, hence people need to gitgut.
A new system in casual could work but i doubt it, as its just looking for new friends (as i interpet it).


DeviantFive0 wrote:
NoOne-NBA wrote:This is why I've changed my mind since launch, and now support performance-based ranking, especially in Solo Standard.

Anything that can create a larger gap, between one tier and the next, should help the matchmaking overall, once it reaches full effect.
It doesn't have to be anything excessive, just an extra little bump up or down, depending on how you did in that particular game.
People who contribute a lot will drift upwards with a given tier, while others will drift downward.
Over time, those small bumps will push people farther apart, leaving the system with wider gaps between players, while it decides which players to match together.


This approach would work well. But id like to see it work both ways, play at your best and win = max win points, play at your best and lose = min lose points.

I dont mind losing if i genuinely played crap, but when im at my peak and carrying the team but we still lose, i hope to god that im not losing the same MMR as the rest of the team.



Soo super often people think they carry, while effectively they actually fuck op more for their teammates than do gokd making their team play even worse. Also theres no way to calculate who played best, you can have most pts but failed shots count, can have 100% passing accuracy but the passes could still be non effective at all.
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Re: Another issue regarding MMR

Postby Doomstrike on Wed Aug 30, 2017 9:11 am

xkoeckiiej wrote:
Soo super often people think they carry, while effectively they actually fuck op more for their teammates than do gokd making their team play even worse. Also theres no way to calculate who played best, you can have most pts but failed shots count, can have 100% passing accuracy but the passes could still be non effective at all.


Yah this is exactly why we can't have individual gains. Unlike live sports or others where people are keeping track the system has no way of identifying this stuff.

You hit the ball sideways the system has no way of recording if that was a pass, a bad hit, an accident or you dumping the ball to the side. You blocked a teammate from making a better save and in turn left the ball in front of the net. That isn't helping. The only way you get the proper stats you need is with live monitoring and there is no way that is ever going to happen. Stats and performance based is and should be kept to tournaments. Ranked just tries to give you decent games. If Psyonix didn't have season rewards I bet half the people complaining about MMR wouldn't care. People think they are better then they actually are and so think that if the system worked how they think it should they would all be grand champs.
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Re: Another issue regarding MMR

Postby DeviantFive0 on Wed Aug 30, 2017 9:26 am

xkoeckiiej wrote:
midnightgreen20 wrote:
zGreenMachine- wrote:I can agree that players with the same MMR can be proficient at different skills. So because of that maybe MM can't make balanced games, is that the point you're trying to make? Or are you against MM trying to make balanced games at all?

Or are you simply suggesting that MM shouldn't try to use higher/lower ranked players to balance games?

Should the variables that make up a player's MMR be changed? Are you trying to point out there should be an alternative to MMR altogether?

I have a lot of questions as you can see :P


I'm saying that it can't ultimately make balanced games. This may not be much of an issue at the champion levels, but certainly below there is way too much fluctuation in skills and such that it will never be consistent enough to be passable in my eyes. It's more reason why there needs to be a better option outside of the casual playlists, like the player lobbies idea that I have. I'm open to other ideas if other ones are presented, but none have been so far.


Heeyy someone i can agree with.
In champion and even grandchampion people still have the same problem like in the lower ranks.
Especially lower ranked games will never have a system which allows to always have close games.
People are too shit (no offense) in most aspects making it impossible, hence people need to gitgut.
A new system in casual could work but i doubt it, as its just looking for new friends (as i interpet it).


DeviantFive0 wrote:
NoOne-NBA wrote:This is why I've changed my mind since launch, and now support performance-based ranking, especially in Solo Standard.

Anything that can create a larger gap, between one tier and the next, should help the matchmaking overall, once it reaches full effect.
It doesn't have to be anything excessive, just an extra little bump up or down, depending on how you did in that particular game.
People who contribute a lot will drift upwards with a given tier, while others will drift downward.
Over time, those small bumps will push people farther apart, leaving the system with wider gaps between players, while it decides which players to match together.


This approach would work well. But id like to see it work both ways, play at your best and win = max win points, play at your best and lose = min lose points.

I dont mind losing if i genuinely played crap, but when im at my peak and carrying the team but we still lose, i hope to god that im not losing the same MMR as the rest of the team.



Soo super often people think they carry, while effectively they actually fuck op more for their teammates than do gokd making their team play even worse. Also theres no way to calculate who played best, you can have most pts but failed shots count, can have 100% passing accuracy but the passes could still be non effective at all.


I dont disagree, im not one to blow my own trumpet, 40% of the time i play awful, thats because im addict who comes home from days at work tired and expects to play at my peak :cheesygrin:

But in the cases where i do actually play well its a little disheartening to not see reward.
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Re: Another issue regarding MMR

Postby NoOne-NBA on Wed Aug 30, 2017 10:07 am

xkoeckiiej wrote:Soo super often people think they carry, while effectively they actually fuck op more for their teammates than do gokd making their team play even worse. Also theres no way to calculate who played best, you can have most pts but failed shots count, can have 100% passing accuracy but the passes could still be non effective at all.

That's why I'd like to see them try this out in Solo Standard first, and why I'd like to see them use things other than total in-game points to justify the bonuses.
That should give them a good comparison to the current system, especially if they leave the rest of the ladders as-is, during the testing period.
My thought here is that goals/shot percentages should be used, rather than total shots, saves should only count if there is a subsequent clear, etc...

If two players on a team are combining to set/score goals repeatedly, while at the same time rotating back effectively for defense, why should they take a full hit on a close loss, when the third player on the team literally did nothing?
On the other end of that, why should the player who did nothing get full win points, without contributing effectively?
The system I'm suggesting would tend to push those players farther apart, with each game played, whether they win or lose those games.
The existing system keeps them all lumped together regardless.

The results for any one game can be heavily misleading, but over time it should become relatively clear who is, and who is not, deserving of their current rank.
The larger the list of players a player has been teamed up with, the less likely that system would be to misinterpret the effectiveness of that player's contributions.
People who ARE effective will tend to accumulate stats, over time.
As-is, wins and losses are the only thing that matters, which gives the current system a lot of room to hide any specific player's shortcomings.
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Re: Another issue regarding MMR

Postby Tentacles on Wed Aug 30, 2017 1:27 pm

If they silently used this system it wouldn't encourage ball chasing. What really needs to go is sticking higher rated players with lower rated players, if you play at that rank it doesn't matter what team you are on. Random only plz.
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Re: Another issue regarding MMR

Postby midnightgreen20 on Wed Aug 30, 2017 8:51 pm

NoOne-NBA wrote:
xkoeckiiej wrote:Soo super often people think they carry, while effectively they actually fuck op more for their teammates than do gokd making their team play even worse. Also theres no way to calculate who played best, you can have most pts but failed shots count, can have 100% passing accuracy but the passes could still be non effective at all.

That's why I'd like to see them try this out in Solo Standard first, and why I'd like to see them use things other than total in-game points to justify the bonuses.
That should give them a good comparison to the current system, especially if they leave the rest of the ladders as-is, during the testing period.
My thought here is that goals/shot percentages should be used, rather than total shots, saves should only count if there is a subsequent clear, etc...

If two players on a team are combining to set/score goals repeatedly, while at the same time rotating back effectively for defense, why should they take a full hit on a close loss, when the third player on the team literally did nothing?
On the other end of that, why should the player who did nothing get full win points, without contributing effectively?
The system I'm suggesting would tend to push those players farther apart, with each game played, whether they win or lose those games.
The existing system keeps them all lumped together regardless.

The results for any one game can be heavily misleading, but over time it should become relatively clear who is, and who is not, deserving of their current rank.
The larger the list of players a player has been teamed up with, the less likely that system would be to misinterpret the effectiveness of that player's contributions.
People who ARE effective will tend to accumulate stats, over time.
As-is, wins and losses are the only thing that matters, which gives the current system a lot of room to hide any specific player's shortcomings.


Overwatch has been doing this since they introduced their ranked mode, and even in that game they still have problems in terms of matchmaking. Part of the problem is that people play different roles in matches, but the game can't entirely distinguish those roles. This has caused people playing healers to gain less MMR even if they are being very effective in their role. They have made adjustments to that throughout the past few seasons, but it still hasn't been enough of a fix to where the player base is happy with how things are turning out.

RL would be the same way. People will have some matches where they score a good number of points, and get a good boost to MMR. But soon enough, they will be on a team that they don't play well with, and have a low score. Basically it will even out and almost have no impact in the long term.
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Re: Another issue regarding MMR

Postby Tentacles on Wed Aug 30, 2017 8:59 pm

Counter point a good player does all the roles. Generally, when I am carrying in solo 3s I end up being the best goalie, shooter, and passer on the team.
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Re: Another issue regarding MMR

Postby midnightgreen20 on Thu Aug 31, 2017 7:12 am

Tentacles wrote:Counter point a good player does all the roles. Generally, when I am carrying in solo 3s I end up being the best goalie, shooter, and passer on the team.


True, but as people progress they are going to have some holes in their game. It's not a completely linear skill progression. If you end up on a team that has the same holes, it can lead to disaster as opposed to someone who compliments the others well.
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Re: Another issue regarding MMR

Postby NoOne-NBA on Thu Aug 31, 2017 7:42 am

midnightgreen20 wrote:People will have some matches where they score a good number of points, and get a good boost to MMR. But soon enough, they will be on a team that they don't play well with, and have a low score. Basically it will even out and almost have no impact in the long term.

I don't see that.

Even if the proposed system only results in a 1 point/game difference, on average, players who contribute regularly will benefit from that, to the tune of at least a few divisions/season.
Players who don't contribute will move down that same few divisions, widening the gap between those players, which should help the matchmaking system better calculate their actual skill levels, when deciding which players to put into a given match.
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Re: Another issue regarding MMR

Postby Tentacles on Thu Aug 31, 2017 2:08 pm

Another interesting twist on the system worth trying would be to put all the higher MMR players on the same team. If you belong in that rank prove it.
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Re: Another issue regarding MMR

Postby Mantus on Fri Sep 08, 2017 3:58 am

Why are you guys so dumb? There is only one reason to have MMR and that's so Psyonix can manipulate when you win and when you lose, other wise there is nothing more fail safe than just having natural progression ladders that you face people of equal talent and move on when you're better.

Why would they want to do that? Consumers consume emotionally. Why do you like someone that doesn't want you? You hook up, you don't care for them much, you're seeing other people, but when they dump you, you gotta have them, they're yours, if they just knew how you felt. That's why you go on losing streaks that derank you. That's the emotional low. When you go back on your winning streak.. Youre gonna buy mad keys. Youre going to open mad crates. While when youre on your losing streak youre gonna quit the game, move on, stop putting yourself under a system that is so rigged.

That's all MMR is. There is no reason for it at all. Everything is just a BS excuse. Like you're favorite rapper is straight up ganster from the hood. Except that he is a rich kid, with everything handed to him.. and just selling you a story so you buy his dope poor ghetto albums. Reality. What is MMR for? Not a god damn thing except for psyonix to manipulate when you win and when you lose.
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Re: Another issue regarding MMR

Postby Mantus on Fri Sep 08, 2017 4:12 am

Sock puppet account. Its a second account that someone posts under to support themselves and appear like a second opinion concurring with arguments against their opponents. That's why you get so frustrated about obvious problems and someone just keeps going against the betterment of the player base for strange reasons. Its known for companies to host their own forums with sock puppet accounts that try to belittle and estrange their player base through shame. To shame you into accepting what they make appear as a majority opinion when it is in fact not. Companies try to barrage you with opinions that are unfair for the player base by shaming you that youre a bad player. Wake up MMR is bull and it only helps psyonix engineer who wins and who loses.
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Re: Another issue regarding MMR

Postby Tentacles on Fri Sep 08, 2017 4:26 am

Lay off the edibles Manuts.
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Re: Another issue regarding MMR

Postby Mantus on Fri Sep 08, 2017 4:30 am

It wouldn't change anything. MMR is psyonix control over progression. Do you have anything real to talk about?
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