The matchmaking is fine.

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Re: The matchmaking is fine.

Postby xkoeckiiej on Tue Sep 12, 2017 2:23 am

Hayaweh wrote:
OsoMako wrote:Technically Champions do have it worse since there are fewer similar ranked players to match with them, so they see the thing that you're seeing more often.

The difference is that they carry it upon themselves to protect their rank and don't cry when they fail to do so, whereas you just lose yours and whine. If you won any of those games, you'd get plenty of points to reward you for it. And you can't just lose none for losing a game, so yeah, you'll div down from it sometimes. Just see it as an opportunity to play against a higher tier player. Sometimes you win and get a fat stack of points. The higher level player has way more to lose than you do.

Really though, a two rank difference isn't insane -- even for a 1v1.


I don't want to seem negativist. But you will at beast win what, 1 more point? You get completely outclassed, may with on a fluke, earn 1 more point.
If you lose, you lose exactly the same amount of points, if not more.
Happened to us with my usual 2v2 mate. We're both Diamond 2. We lose quite badly because well, there was a champ and a champ 2. We defend ourselves, but still. Then you see that you lost a div and 11 or 12 points. It just hurts.

I'm really sorry. But I just can't get the logic behind the matchmaking and I'm a game dev, usually understanding game mechanics and envisioning how things work is my thing to do. But when seemingly I see tens and tens of people not understanding it and seeing the same things I do. All I can say is that there's something wrong.

I don't know, maybe they did the stuffs and forgot to press the release button on it? Or pressed it and it broke and it never got pushed?

But regardless, the matchmaking and the Elo system currently is not stable, nor is it fair.

And as E_M_E_T mentionned. It's not better at Champion. So isn't everybody agreeing that something is wrong? I can't care less at the tier at which is happens and that you want to wage war on who's got the biggest and who's got the worse problem in the world. But the real issue is that the issue is being noticed at every ranks (aside of GC because there's no higher)...




On another note:
I see that Mr.Grand Champion is once again only here to bash at people claiming that the matchmaking's equations are not correct. I can see that he still does not understand how different it is for him, since he's at the top. (And I know it's no use to discuss with him since we "Cant get a proper constructive discussion with them anyhow, so no point in replying" to him. :)

Its good the way it is imho.
Mm atm favors solo play over teamplay in terms of points, as your likelyhood to win as a teamed up team is alot higher than when you play with randoms (alot of ppl blaming their teammates here and everywhere).
Also, if you only gain 1-3 points more, youre supposed to win that game , as thats the fluctuation in gains.

funny is, ive been through gold plat diamond and everything.
so i do know how it works in those ranks.
Hell, when i was first learning 1v1 i had a 17 winstreak (from diamond to c2) and came vs jessie (top100 if not top10) while being champ2.
He beat me and i started analysing how he played instead of going to psyonix crying how it wasnt a fair match.
Cuzz after that lose, i got straight back up facing champ2s.
If youre on such a winstreak (what everyone is complaining about), it means youre above your 50-50 game and you should be faced onto a higher tier like that. Else you keep beating the same persons which according to your winstreak youre supposed to win.

Also i prefer finding lower tier players among gc's when theres not enough gc's online.
It gives them a chance to see what level to reach for and me a chance to show i belong there.
If i lose that one i lose 16 pts or so, as it shows i dont belong there. (He will gain approx 12-16).
If youre on the same tier (in diamond with my friends acc, consecutively 6-8 pts).
On gc vs gc , youre lucky to get 6.
The higher you get the harder it will be, leaving the people who cant handle their ass down in plats etc.

Oh i should change every word champ for platinum
Every gc for diamond /c1. Same freaking story different ranksz
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Re: The matchmaking is fine.

Postby midnightgreen20 on Tue Sep 12, 2017 6:27 am

I don't know how much longer it is going to take for Psyonix to do the same thing over and over until people realize that this entire system is simply not going to work. Another soft reset is going to create more volatility after a week or two, and the same issues are going to be present as they have been since they launched competitive. Every game that uses an Elo system falls into the same pit holes as RL has. It's really just a gambling system where you wager your MMR in hopes that a good match is made. But those systems ultimately fail because numbers don't tell the full story of the match or the players involved.
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Re: The matchmaking is fine.

Postby xkoeckiiej on Tue Sep 12, 2017 6:53 am

midnightgreen20 wrote:I don't know how much longer it is going to take for Psyonix to do the same thing over and over until people realize that this entire system is simply not going to work. Another soft reset is going to create more volatility after a week or two, and the same issues are going to be present as they have been since they launched competitive. Every game that uses an Elo system falls into the same pit holes as RL has. It's really just a gambling system where you wager your MMR in hopes that a good match is made. But those systems ultimately fail because numbers don't tell the full story of the match or the players involved.

I think thats the biggest difference, seeing it as a problem or as a good challenge.
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Re: The matchmaking is fine.

Postby IJx on Tue Sep 12, 2017 7:04 am

Ask me, the system should work something similiar to that of Hearthstone:

The ranking system is replaced by x number of wins to enter the next division, consecutive wins count as +additional win, so for example third win in a row would count as +3 wins (1st consecutive win 1 win, second 2, third 3). On the flip side consecutive losses count the opposite. The matches are paired up as per to MMR, which now is hidden and only used to matchmake players.

Upon entering Grand Champion Div 4 (or 5 so to speak), you enter the Grand Champion queue, where your MMR is reset to default, and you no longer play of divisions, but of ranks that is displayed by a number [Your number may go high, but you will never lose GC 5]. This is a separate queue where you can no longer play against anyone but Grand Champions 5's, and here is where it gets tricky, balancing the numbers so winning against someone far beneath you, let's say top 80 vs. top 500 would still earn proper points for the top 80. This is to ensure that the top players cannot just stop playing and retain their highest ranks, but would force the top 10 and others to play almost daily to retain their rank.

Why a system like this? I am tired of seeing top 10 players becoming inactive, essentially locking everyone out of reaching those ranks, since if the top 10 do not play, its next to impossible to reach those ranks, since it requires +93,75% win rate to even retain your rank where it is when you play there, unless you play against the higher ranked opponents.
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Re: The matchmaking is fine.

Postby NoOne-NBA on Tue Sep 12, 2017 7:54 am

wsupchris1222444 wrote:lol, I'll admit though they do give us a long leash before getting warned, suspended or banned

This is a different environment to the game.

The purpose of the game is to PLAY THE GAME, and have fun in the process.
Attitudes detract from that fun, as do things like not playing, playing for the opposing team, etc...
Those actions are subject to discipline, if they are displayed in the game.

The forums are here to DISCUSS things amongst ourselves.
Attitudes, and language, are tolerated here, more than they are in the game, because people get emotional about the things they discuss.
This is doubly true when someone disagrees with the ideas presented by another user.
Those attitudes and language don't detract as much from the purpose of this environment, as they do from the purpose of the game.
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Re: The matchmaking is fine.

Postby Tentacles on Tue Sep 12, 2017 1:12 pm

This picture perfectly shows the problem with ranked match making. Image
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Re: The matchmaking is fine.

Postby littlebigleg on Tue Sep 12, 2017 1:37 pm

not bad going for a pro
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Re: The matchmaking is fine.

Postby xkoeckiiej on Tue Sep 12, 2017 10:27 pm

Tentacles wrote:This picture perfectly shows the problem with ranked match making. Image

It shows indeed theres nothing wrong.
viewtopic.php?f=33&t=39120
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Re: The matchmaking is fine.

Postby midnightgreen20 on Fri Sep 15, 2017 10:07 pm

xkoeckiiej wrote:
midnightgreen20 wrote:I don't know how much longer it is going to take for Psyonix to do the same thing over and over until people realize that this entire system is simply not going to work. Another soft reset is going to create more volatility after a week or two, and the same issues are going to be present as they have been since they launched competitive. Every game that uses an Elo system falls into the same pit holes as RL has. It's really just a gambling system where you wager your MMR in hopes that a good match is made. But those systems ultimately fail because numbers don't tell the full story of the match or the players involved.

I think thats the biggest difference, seeing it as a problem or as a good challenge.


Nope. There is only one way to see it and that is a problem. Many games have tried various tweaks but have come up with the same results. It's just that the gaming industry at large is too lazy and complacent to attempt to do something way different than the rest in fear of it affecting their sales. That says a lot to me about the gaming audience at large.
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Re: The matchmaking is fine.

Postby xkoeckiiej on Sat Sep 16, 2017 3:47 am

midnightgreen20 wrote:
xkoeckiiej wrote:
midnightgreen20 wrote:I don't know how much longer it is going to take for Psyonix to do the same thing over and over until people realize that this entire system is simply not going to work. Another soft reset is going to create more volatility after a week or two, and the same issues are going to be present as they have been since they launched competitive. Every game that uses an Elo system falls into the same pit holes as RL has. It's really just a gambling system where you wager your MMR in hopes that a good match is made. But those systems ultimately fail because numbers don't tell the full story of the match or the players involved.

I think thats the biggest difference, seeing it as a problem or as a good challenge.


Nope. There is only one way to see it and that is a problem. Many games have tried various tweaks but have come up with the same results. It's just that the gaming industry at large is too lazy and complacent to attempt to do something way different than the rest in fear of it affecting their sales. That says a lot to me about the gaming audience at large.

80% of the grandchamps (that ive asked) don't see it as a problem though, guess theres more than 1 way.
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Re: The matchmaking is fine.

Postby Tentacles on Sat Sep 16, 2017 1:09 pm

Grand champs don't see a problem because they are the top 0.1% in game. anything below champ 3 is laughable to them.
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Re: The matchmaking is fine.

Postby xkoeckiiej on Sat Sep 16, 2017 2:02 pm

Tentacles wrote:Grand champs don't see a problem because they are the top 0.1% in game. anything below champ 3 is laughable to them.

That's like saying diamonds can't see it either because they're too retarded to know how to play the game and therefor there is no problem.
That's not true though. You shouldn't make false accusations based on prejudice.
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Re: The matchmaking is fine.

Postby Fish_Goes_Moo on Wed Sep 20, 2017 7:23 pm

So why is 1v1 matchmaking setup as +2 your rank always?

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Get nothing but Diamond 1s when I'm platinum 2, I play and claw my way up into diamond 1 and now I get diamond 3s? There are plenty of diamond 1s about because that's all I get when I'm platinum 2, but once I get to diamond 1, I have to play diamond 3?
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Re: The matchmaking is fine.

Postby xkoeckiiej on Thu Sep 21, 2017 4:07 am

Fish_Goes_Moo wrote:So why is 1v1 matchmaking setup as +2 your rank always?

Image

Get nothing but Diamond 1s when I'm platinum 2, I play and claw my way up into diamond 1 and now I get diamond 3s? There are plenty of diamond 1s about because that's all I get when I'm platinum 2, but once I get to diamond 1, I have to play diamond 3?


Nice ! you got in the rank of the people you beat !
Over a small gap as well even, way to go!
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Re: The matchmaking is fine.

Postby NoOne-NBA on Thu Sep 21, 2017 6:42 am

Fish_Goes_Moo wrote:So why is 1v1 matchmaking setup as +2 your rank always?

Perspective?

That statement completely ignores the fact that every person you are playing in those matches is being "setup with a -2 match from their rank", so the system obviously doesn't set everyone up with +2 matches in 1v1.
You've just spent more time on the unlucky side of those matches, for whatever reason.
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Re: The matchmaking is fine.

Postby Fish_Goes_Moo on Thu Sep 21, 2017 7:15 am

NoOne-NBA wrote:
Fish_Goes_Moo wrote:So why is 1v1 matchmaking setup as +2 your rank always?

Perspective?

That statement completely ignores the fact that every person you are playing in those matches is being "setup with a -2 match from their rank", so the system obviously doesn't set everyone up with +2 matches in 1v1.
You've just spent more time on the unlucky side of those matches, for whatever reason.


Then I guess the question is, why does it consistently try to screw over certain players by generally matching above their rank?

We know there are plenty of diamond 1s, because I consistently get them when I was platinum 2, why are diamond 1s suddenly an unsuitable match when I'm diamond 1.
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Re: The matchmaking is fine.

Postby NoOne-NBA on Thu Sep 21, 2017 7:45 am

Fish_Goes_Moo wrote:Then I guess the question is, why does it consistently try to screw over certain players by generally matching above their rank?

That I can't tell you.
I suspect it's a "best available player" scenario, and you are somehow the "best available player" for those higher ranked guys, more often than not.
When I play solo, I tend to end up on the "double middle" team most often, as part of the "best match" for a pre-made split skill team.

I'm not saying the system is perfect, by any means.
I'd love to see it all tightened up significantly, so that players face other players at their current rank, and work their way up/down from that.
The "streaks" thing in particular is pretty stupid, when you view the larger picture.
If I belong in a higher rank, and I've worked my way past "placement status", keep me playing people at my current rank until I EARN enough points to make that higher rank naturally.
Trying to create that artificially, by throwing people up against people who are already higher ranked, to see if they're "ready" for that rank, then penalizing the hell out of them for losing to somebody they shouldn't have been playing in the first place, is just kind of stupid.
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Re: The matchmaking is fine.

Postby xkoeckiiej on Thu Sep 21, 2017 8:34 am

NoOne-NBA wrote:
Fish_Goes_Moo wrote:Then I guess the question is, why does it consistently try to screw over certain players by generally matching above their rank?

That I can't tell you.
I suspect it's a "best available player" scenario, and you are somehow the "best available player" for those higher ranked guys, more often than not.
When I play solo, I tend to end up on the "double middle" team most often, as part of the "best match" for a pre-made split skill team.

I'm not saying the system is perfect, by any means.
I'd love to see it all tightened up significantly, so that players face other players at their current rank, and work their way up/down from that.
The "streaks" thing in particular is pretty stupid, when you view the larger picture.
If I belong in a higher rank, and I've worked my way past "placement status", keep me playing people at my current rank until I EARN enough points to make that higher rank naturally.
Trying to create that artificially, by throwing people up against people who are already higher ranked, to see if they're "ready" for that rank, then penalizing the hell out of them for losing to somebody they shouldn't have been playing in the first place, is just kind of stupid.

They don't penalize though.
Only lose a very small amount.
On every smurf ive played on, on my main, nearly all friends i play with, lose only 1-4 points which is nothing.
So i find it very very strange that you get penalized like you say.
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